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Thread: Suggestion for Ideal Vive/VR Controls

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Suggestion for Ideal Vive/VR Controls

    Took me almost two hours to write this up, but with my limited experience with various VR titles I think I figured out the most intuitive and precise controls possible for TTS on the Vive.
    _________________________________________________

    Firstly:

    Fix the laser:
    The laser currently implemented works great for games with guns, but when just trying to point at an object or a menu item pointing it straight forward like a remote control (or the SteamVR System Menu) just feels more natural.

    Fix the teleport system:
    Currently whenever I try to use it I just stay where I am. I don't know if it's because TTS had an update or SteamVR or what, but I can't teleport around the room at all anymore. Also, adding the option for in-game locomotion (not by default) will make some users that don't like the teleport system happier, making it feel more like an actual game room.

    Switching between Laser and Hand Controls:
    Rather than trying to gauge the weird proximity required to activate hand mode when playing simply make it so 1 button (the grip button) switches easily between laser pointer mode and hand-grip mode. In addition, make the hand-grip mode actually look like a hand (or glove) facing the same way your actual hand is facing. The best example of this I can think of is Job Simulator. It's silly, but it works.

    In hand-grip mode while holding an object your virtual hand disappears to allow you to see the object you're holdin. The only exception will be the touchpad buttons which appear while your thumb is currently touching, but not clicking, the touchpad. This will allow you to see the object completely, but still see the touchpad options at will.
    __________________________________________________ __

    Main Menu:
    Shrink it down and bring it a bit closer to the player's face so it's easier to read, or make it scaleable same as in-game for table/room. Maybe make it a pinup board like you see in game shops sometimes. Other than that it's pretty good, actually. Allow scrolling via the pointer touchpad when selecting games. Make it so the only button on the touchpad that shows is the teleport button because there are no objects to shuffle/rotate/flip/interact with in any way. Allow users to teleport closer to the menu wall to read it better.
    __________________________________________________ __

    In-Game Controls:

    Not holding or pointing at anything unlocked:
    - Grip button - switch between laser pointer and direct hand interaction, same as when you're currently holding/lasering an object. This should be its ONLY FUNCTION. That super zoom thing should be saved for objects you are already holding (I'll get to that).
    - Lower touchpad button - scaling (currently handled by grip buttons). If you're not holding or pointing at anything, the flip button is functionally useless anyway. Set this as the scaling button when not pointing or holding anything.
    - Center touchpad button - teleport/movement direction controller facing (only along X/Z axis, does not change height) (alternative locomotion option toggleable in options menu along with movement speed)
    - Left and right touchpad buttons - Nothing (technically rotate, same as current, but nothing is selected or hovered over so it does nothing).
    - Upper touchpad button - In laser mode make this a quick switch key for the Vector or Pixel line draw tools. While holding it down and pulling the trigger it draws things with the laser. In hand mode, switch to a Vector or Pixel pencil/pen/marker/whatever in your virtual hand to physically draw with. OR turns your hand into a giant pencil/pen/marker/whatever that is scaled to the size of your Vive controller, allowing you to grip the controller like an actual writing tool and write with it in-game. Currently if you're not pointing at or holding something this button does diddly, so let's give it a useful function.
    - Trigger - grab/select area. Same as current. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it!)
    - Menu button - open menu (same as current)

    When hovering over object in hand-grip mode:
    - Grip button - switch to laser mode.
    - Lower touchpad button - flip (same as current)
    - Center touchpad button - super zoom (currently handled by grip button while not holding an object). This will allow you to see the object/card at a larger scale without changing the actual scale of it. Useful for small text and requires the player to be close to the object/card to enlarge it, preventing cheaters from peaking at face down cards with the laser (currently do-able with grip buttons and laser)
    - Left and right touchpad buttons - rotate (same as current)
    - Upper touchpad button - shuffle/roll/etc (same as current)
    - Pull trigger - pick up object/stack/single card (same as current)
    - Menu button - bring up right click menu and laser (same as current), disable grip button to switch to hand-grip mode while menu is up, switch back to hand-grip mode when pressed again

    When pointing at object in laser mode:
    - Grip button - switch to hand-grip mode.
    - Lower touchpad button - flip (same as current)
    - Center touchpad button - nothing.
    - Left and right touchpad buttons - rotate (same as current)
    - Upper touchpad button - shuffle/roll/etc (same as current)
    - Pull trigger - pick up object/stack/single card (same as current)
    - Menu button - bring up right click menu (same as current), disable grip button to switch to hand grip mode while menu is up, stay in laser mode when pressed again

    When holding something in hand-grip mode (holding trigger):
    - Grip button - switch to laser mode. Once object is let go hand switches back to grip mode, or stays in laser mode (toggelable in options)
    - Lower touchpad button - flip (same as current)
    - Center touchpad button - super zoom (currently handled by grip button while not holding an object). This will allow you to see the object/card at a larger scale without changing the actual scale of it. Useful for small text and requires the player to be holding the object/card to enlarge it, preventing cheaters from peaking at face down cards with the laser (currently do-able with grip buttons and laser).
    - Left and right touchpad buttons - rotate (same as current)
    - Upper touchpad button - shuffle/roll/etc (same as current)
    - Pull trigger of 2nd controller (also in hand-grip mode) within certain proximity of 1st controller object held - grab/set scale of object, as though you are stretching the object to be bigger or squishing it to be smaller. Must reach a certain threshold of stretching before scaling starts to prevent accidental scaling in case of just putting something in other hand. Does not engage if already holding object in 2nd controller (already holding trigger).
    - Pull trigger of 2nd controller (also in hand-grip mode) within certain proximity of 1st controller holding multiple objects at once - if pulled quickly will scale whole group of objects. If 2nd controller trigger held, then select object in hand of first controller will be grabbed and grip will transfer from 1st controller to second controller. If 1st controller trigger let go before scaling or gripping of single item triggered, entire stack will be transferred to 2nd hand (still holding trigger).
    - Menu button - pick up second object, or any objects touched while menu button held (currently only doable with mouse by pressing right click)

    When holding something in laser mode (holding trigger):
    - Grip button - switch to hand-grip mode. Once object is let go of switches back to laser mode, or stays in hand-grip mode (toggleable in options)
    - Lower touchpad button - flip (same as current)
    - Center touchpad button - nothing.
    - Left and right touchpad buttons - rotate (same as current)
    - Upper touchpad button - shuffle/roll/etc (same as current)
    - Pull trigger of 2nd controller while pointing at same object - hold = cut deck in half, pull quickly like drawing card = draw card off top of deck. If holding multiple objects at once pointing the second controller laser at one object in group and holding trigger for a moment will pull selected object from stack of objects same as with regular object on table. If 1st controller trigger let go before single object from stack is removed then entire stack transfers to 2nd controller laser (still holding trigger).
    - Menu button - pick up second object (currently only doable with mouse by pressing right click)
    ________________________________________________

    If I missed anything let me know. This would allow (mostly) complete integration of same basic controls available to mouse and keyboard/controller users. Allowing VR users to play with a gamepad (360 or otherwise) instead of the Vive controllers would also allow non-Vive users (such as Oculus or OSVR users) to play in VR, opening up the VR scene to a wider array of players.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post
    Fix the laser:
    The laser currently implemented works great for games with guns, but when just trying to point at an object or a menu item pointing it straight forward like a remote control (or the SteamVR System Menu) just feels more natural.
    I believe the rational here is that since most of the action happens below the horizon, having the laser point forwards all the time becomes a strain on the wrist because you have to point it downwards. By setting it to sort of point downwards by default, it's a lot more comfortable over time. The flip side to this is the menus are always above and in front of you (like the SteamVR system menu) so in those cases a remote would be a better fit. I think a better solution would be to bring the menus down to the table level somehow, since that's the only time a remote-style angle is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post
    Fix the teleport system:
    Currently whenever I try to use it I just stay where I am. I don't know if it's because TTS had an update or SteamVR or what, but I can't teleport around the room at all anymore. Also, adding the option for in-game locomotion (not by default) will make some users that don't like the teleport system happier, making it feel more like an actual game room.
    It's working for me. You do have to pull the trigger while the purple teleport line is visible before it'll actually teleport you. It's a little weird. I think it should just teleport you when you let to of the button. If you teleported by accident, you can just teleport right back.

    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post
    ...- Grip button - switch between laser pointer and direct hand interaction, same as when you're currently holding/lasering an object. This should be its ONLY FUNCTION. That super zoom thing should be saved for objects you are already holding (I'll get to that).
    ...
    Useful for small text and requires the player to be close to the object/card to enlarge it, preventing cheaters from peaking at face down cards with the laser (currently do-able with grip buttons and laser)
    I'm going to have to disagree. Superzooming to see an object you can't reach is very useful. The only other options are to either take the object (then other people can't see it until you're done with it) or to walk/teleport over just to read the fine print, then walk/teleport back. In games with a large play area (like eldritch horror) I don't want to spend half my time with position management just to read cards.

    There's also the other players to consider. If I want to read someone's card, in non-vr, You put your little mouse hand over it and alt-zoom. In vr, you can put your little laser-dot (they just see the dot) over the card and superzoom. If you're forced to physically take/touch the card, that's a lot more distracting. Like, I don't want some guy coming to my side of the table and touching all my stuff whenever they want to read a card. The laser dot has much less 'presence'.

    As for cheating, whenever you view the backside of a card with superzoom, it puts the "This player is looking at the reverse of this card" icon where everyone can see it. Same as when any other player uses peek.

    I do think there should be some a little bit of... I can't think of a term...distance? between superzoom and peek superzoom. Like, if you rotate the object where you can almost see the underside, ghost the object's textures. If you keep going (you know, if you really mean it) then it'll pop back and you can see the whole object, with the peek icon added for everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post

    - Menu button - pick up second object, or any objects touched while menu button held (currently only doable with mouse by pressing right click)
    I like this idea. I like most your ideas, but I'm just pulling the ones I disagree with, but I really like this one. You can't use the menu button for anything else anyway while you're holding an object (realistically) so why not co-opt it to grab more things.

    One tweak, maybe, would be to have the menu drop an object from the bottom (or reverse order from how you picked them up. Last In First Out) with every press of the menu button, but have a second pull of the trigger (click it again, but don't let go fully) would add an object.

    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post

    Allowing VR users to play with a gamepad (360 or otherwise) instead of the Vive controllers would also allow non-Vive users (such as Oculus or OSVR users) to play in VR, opening up the VR scene to a wider array of players.
    I've seen this suggested, but no one's been able to say how it would actually work. In 3d space, where would the cursor be in relation to you? What if it's behind you and you lose track of where it is? How do you access the menu which is on a different plane?

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant10k View Post
    I believe the rational here is that since most of the action happens below the horizon, having the laser point forwards all the time becomes a strain on the wrist because you have to point it downwards. By setting it to sort of point downwards by default, it's a lot more comfortable over time. The flip side to this is the menus are always above and in front of you (like the SteamVR system menu) so in those cases a remote would be a better fit. I think a better solution would be to bring the menus down to the table level somehow, since that's the only time a remote-style angle is needed.
    I can understand that, but I myself (and I imagine many other players) am playing in VR standing up with the table below me. Pointing like a remote still makes more sense and feels more natural to me and allows me to extend my entire arm to get a more accurate shot, where-as with the gun pointing I have to angle my wrist, which is actually more strain on my wrist and I can't use my whole arm or shoulder muscles to steady out my aim.


    Quote Originally Posted by grant10k View Post
    It's working for me. You do have to pull the trigger while the purple teleport line is visible before it'll actually teleport you. It's a little weird. I think it should just teleport you when you let to of the button. If you teleported by accident, you can just teleport right back.
    That was not made clear, so thank you for clarifying. In every other game the teleport button teleports you as soon as you let go of the button, so I was attempting to use it under false assumptions. I'd still prefer it that way, so maybe add a toggle in the options to require trigger pull for teleport or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by grant10k View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree. Superzooming to see an object you can't reach is very useful. The only other options are to either take the object (then other people can't see it until you're done with it) or to walk/teleport over just to read the fine print, then walk/teleport back. In games with a large play area (like eldritch horror) I don't want to spend half my time with position management just to read cards.
    That's fair. I still stand by my suggestion that the grip button should be for switching between hand and laser mode only, though. This would prevent accidental zooming or other actions when trying to make a simple switch.


    Quote Originally Posted by grant10k View Post
    One tweak, maybe, would be to have the menu drop an object from the bottom (or reverse order from how you picked them up. Last In First Out) with every press of the menu button, but have a second pull of the trigger (click it again, but don't let go fully) would add an object.
    I didn't even realize the trigger click was separate from the trigger pull, so this would actually be more ideal. Smart thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by grant10k View Post
    I've seen this suggested, but no one's been able to say how it would actually work. In 3d space, where would the cursor be in relation to you? What if it's behind you and you lose track of where it is? How do you access the menu which is on a different plane?
    I was thinking along the lines of it giving you the same controls as when you're playing with your monitor, but with head tracking to look around the board and room. Left thumbstick would move your hand on the table (stays on the 2D plane, not 3D space), right thumbstick changes relative camera angle and rotation, D-Pad moves you around the room, etc. Literally keep the same controls, but add the VR head-tracking to allow you to look at the surrounding area with separate tracking from your positional camera. The only real hurdle to this would be figuring out how to track the UI. Should it be on the wall like with the Vive controllers, or should it be a permanent fixture on the HMD?

    The best current example I can think of this is looking at the Dolphin emulator. It literally injects the HMD camera into the game with relative separation from the game's HUD/camera, which is why you can see the render-culling in-game with the HMD. You are essentially seeing everything rendered in the 3D space at any time, where-as the actual console (Gamecube/Wii) was specialized to only show you a certain angle at a time, and the render-culling was implemented to save memory and make it run faster.

    It's part of the reason it took so long for technology to get to a point where VR can be rendered as well as it is. We had to get past the hurdle of rendering only what the player was looking at to being able to render entire 3D environments and scenes all at once. It's the same reason that most VR games aren't all that pretty; current video processing technology doesn't allow it. As the hardware gets better, so will the software, though.

    Think about it like the transition from the N64 (first full 3D console) to the PS4 (current top 3D console). It's the same type of technology but vastly superior thanks to improvements in the technology used. The same thing will happen with VR.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post
    I was thinking along the lines of it giving you the same controls as when you're playing with your monitor, but with head tracking to look around the board and room. Left thumbstick would move your hand on the table (stays on the 2D plane, not 3D space), right thumbstick changes relative camera angle and rotation, D-Pad moves you around the room, etc. Literally keep the same controls, but add the VR head-tracking to allow you to look at the surrounding area with separate tracking from your positional camera. The only real hurdle to this would be figuring out how to track the UI. Should it be on the wall like with the Vive controllers, or should it be a permanent fixture on the HMD?
    One way to do the UI if you don't have a tracked controller would be a gaze mouse, where the mouse is essentially whatever you're directly facing. Like a laser glued to your forehead ("I figure every creature deserves a warm meal..."). It's a little google-cardboard-y but it gets the job done. In that case it would have to be on the wall like with the Vive.

    Quote Originally Posted by killerdude23233 View Post
    The best current example I can think of this is looking at the Dolphin emulator. It literally injects the HMD camera into the game with relative separation from the game's HUD/camera, which is why you can see the render-culling in-game with the HMD. You are essentially seeing everything rendered in the 3D space at any time, where-as the actual console (Gamecube/Wii) was specialized to only show you a certain angle at a time, and the render-culling was implemented to save memory and make it run faster.
    I'm pretty sure it's still render-culling, just the Dolphin emulator allows you to look in a different direction than the camera, if that makes sense. Even in VR there's still no reason to render something that's directly behind you. You just have to render everything twice (each eye) and you have to render it super fast. If the framerate drops even a little, it's super nauseating, hence the simplified graphics, for now.

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